Reiter Pit as an ORV park

[Diesel LWB Samy]

I sent a question to Tom Murley of the DNR asking about Reiter as an official ORV park like Walker and Evans. Here is what I recieved in return.







Thank you for your email regarding development of the Reiter Pit area as an ORV park. The Department of Natural Resources supports a variety of uses on state lands, including ORV use, when these activities are compatible with ongoing land management. We are aware that there is a growing interest in and need for access to additional areas for off-road multiple use, whether that is Reiter or another area. The Reiter area may have potential for such use.

As you may be aware, the agency is facing many challenges related to reductions in budget and prioritizing the use of very limited resources. As a result, for the time being, our efforts will be focused on work needed in the Walker Valley ORV Area. We are currently working with IAC grant funds to bring trails up to standard and perform needed maintenance at Walker Valley.

Snohomish County is in the process of amending their county zoning ordinance to allow ORV areas such as Reiter Trails in non-developed areas. You may want to contact the county to find out where they are in this process. I know that a final decision has not been reached at this time.

Even with a county ordinance that allows for this use, we will explore the potential for development of the Reiter area only as future resources allow. At that time, we will welcome the input of the public, including interested potential users. In the meantime, we do offer ORV trails at the Tahuya State Forest and the Walker Valley Trail System.

Thank you again for your email. I maintain a list email addresses of ORV enthusiasts who are interested in receiving periodic updates on ORV management in our region. Please let me know if you would like to be added to this list.

Tom.



Tom Murley
Special Lands Coordinator
NW Region
Department of Natural Resources
919 N. Township St.
Sedro-Woolley, WA 98284
(360) 856-3500
tom.murley@wadnr.gov


Not bad news.

TB

[mark]

I have to start agreeing with Big Mark on this one.... are we SURE we WANT Reider to be an "official" ORV park.


Look at all the hoops, political mobo-jumbo, and "rules" you have to go through to just open or "build" a trail at Walker. Or even organize a clean up.

Then look at Reider, you want a trail, a group gets together and builds one. Trail needs to be fixed cause it washed out or some a-hole drove off it a f-d it up... group rolls out there, gets some logs and fixes it.


I like that the zoning is being worked on to change it to *allow* wheeling there, less illegal and harder to "shut it down", plus more likely for help maintaining it from the local land owners and/or DNR, but I'm not sure if we really want the hassles associated with a legal ORV park.....




Just food for thought.

[Diesel LWB Samy]

When was the last time a trail was built at Reiter? Tight ass right, and its closed.

I think the point is that if it isnt some day developed as an ORV park it will be closed.



TB

[wanderingwillys]

To be brutally honest TA was expanded from a MC single track to a barely passable 4x4 track until some moron got in there with a chainsaw and "fixed it" then any full size would fit and the traffic level went way up - once the creek was diverted by bypass users it was all over...

If anything new is built out there it tends to be a MC or quad trail then gets expanded...

Folks who do this need to keep in mind the two major rules: Stay OUT of running water and DO NOT cut any trees...

If those guidelines are followed and some care for erosion control is given new trail can be established...

Just my 2cts

Matt

[Diesel LWB Samy]

moron got in there with a chainsaw and "fixed it" then any full size would fit and the traffic level went way up

Well there you go again.

The same reason the High Rider was closed. Some ASSHOLE's went and vandalized the radio tower.


It gets pretty frustraiting.


WE ARE KILLING OURSELVES!


Unless we can STOP the ASSHOLE IDIOTS (and we never will) from being themselves, our sport is DOOMED!

FU**


TB

[Big_MARK]

The other thing to do is not tell anyone about the new trails.

They seem to last longer that way.

:rolleyes:

[Diesel LWB Samy]

The other thing to do is not tell anyone about the new trails.

That sir is impossible!

Human nature tells us so.

G. Gordon Liddey siad it, "Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead!"




TB

[wanderingwillys]

What makes Highrider even more interesting was the fact that the individuals responsible for the final round of damages used a gas powered chop saw to cut through the gate on the road and were not "wheelers" at all...

We just have to live with the fact that by nature we are a visable group and will often be lumped in with the vandals, dumpers and other sh!theads that cause trouble and property damage in the woods...

I think the only way around this would be to have more often clean ups and a much better relationship with the local enforcement authorities as eyes and ears (all of these problems rank low on the "fixit" list - and if there is enough of a problem the easier solution is to just restrict access)

What I see as a viable solution would be to create a steward position where we pay a user fee (annual, or per visit) to pay the expenses on the position which would collect the fees, record license info, and keep tabs on trail condition / activity

Much like a ranger position - by having one or two folks in the ORV park who the wheelers (and any user for that matter) could talk to and rely on to issue tickets / enforce closures / kick people out and generally make sure the little problems never boil over; the whole area would function much smoother and not be under the threat of general closure all the time...

I don't think it would ever happen but I think it would work well and I for one would be willing to pay in...

Matt :sad:

[Travis]

The other way, is to start singling out the 4x4 users that ARE causing problems.

Stop protecting our own, start offering them up for sacrifice.

Because, those 5% give us a bad name, and as long as they are protected, and no one sees us policing our own, we'll always be looked at the same.

[Diesel LWB Samy]

I agree with Travis. Normally Im not into narqing people out, but screw people that RUIN our sport.


TB

[mark]

Originally posted by Travis
The other way, is to start singling out the 4x4 users that ARE causing problems.

Stop protecting our own, start offering them up for sacrifice.

Because, those 5% give us a bad name, and as long as they are protected, and no one sees us policing our own, we'll always be looked at the same.

Careful on that.


Depends on your point of view as to who is doing bad, who is doing good, who is doing harm, and who is being harmless.


I have seen people on this very board, responsible people that have an interest in keeping wheeling open, do things that to an outsider, or a newbie, or just a passer by that could/would be considered outrageous or "detrimental" to our continued sport.


This may be blazing or re-blazing a trail were there was none. Taking a new "short cut" cause you can wait for the "slow" people in front of you. Working a new line a *little* farther to the side of an obstacle that starts to cut into the dirt because you HAVE to make it unassisted, spinning tires and "gettn'" it...

I'm not condoning nor am I encouraging nor making any statement about this.... but to one person "just wheeling" and "tearing the place up" are different things, and this goes for all levels. Some guys think its OK to cut things to make themselves fit, other cut things because they got stuck and need to get out without causing more damage (and how do you know if it was this person or the former), sometimes trees just get hit and KNOCKED over (seen it) and then someone else comes through and cusses out the guy before them for destroying the trail...


There are certain things that are just bad or un-called for, and I hope most people can recognize them (even better, recognize them when they are with a group/pearpressure), but then there are peoples OPINIONS and IMPRESSIONS. To one person its "bad", to someone else its "no big deal", and to another it was what was necessary that day...



I hope this was coherent... I kind of rambled... but hopefully my point wasn't lost.

[Travis]

Originally posted by mark
Careful on that.


Depends on your point of view as to who is doing bad, who is doing good, who is doing harm, and who is being harmless.


I have seen people on this very board, responsible people that have an interest in keeping wheeling open, do things that to an outsider, or a newbie, or just a passer by that could/would be considered outrageous or "detrimental" to our continued sport.


This may be blazing or re-blazing a trail were there was none. Taking a new "short cut" cause you can wait for the "slow" people in front of you. Working a new line a *little* farther to the side of an obstacle that starts to cut into the dirt because you HAVE to make it unassisted, spinning tires and "gettn'" it...

I'm not condoning nor am I encouraging nor making any statement about this.... but to one person "just wheeling" and "tearing the place up" are different things, and this goes for all levels. Some guys think its OK to cut things to make themselves fit, other cut things because they got stuck and need to get out without causing more damage (and how do you know if it was this person or the former), sometimes trees just get hit and KNOCKED over (seen it) and then someone else comes through and cusses out the guy before them for destroying the trail...


There are certain things that are just bad or un-called for, and I hope most people can recognize them (even better, recognize them when they are with a group/pearpressure), but then there are peoples OPINIONS and IMPRESSIONS. To one person its "bad", to someone else its "no big deal", and to another it was what was necessary that day...



I hope this was coherent... I kind of rambled... but hopefully my point wasn't lost.

Well.. there is truth in that, but as far as people go, generally they are reasonable. most of the things you cited off, fall in the 95% good wheeler catagory... Things that are NOT ok, other peoples opinions/beliefs be damned (is that a swear word here?)... and this is my list... kinda generalized at that...
------------------------------------------------
Trailblazing of ANY nature in a sanctioned ORV park

Trailblazing to get around "slow" people (and slow people need to learn to move to the side of the trail when at all possible)

Trailblazing because the trail isn't fun enough (reiter is kinda exempt from this, but sorta not at the same time IMO... )

Trailblazing because you can't hack it.... thats what winches are for.

Dumping garbage

cutting trees to fit down a trail, there is NO excuse for that. If you can't fit, you shouldn't be there. PERIOD
------------------------------------
You see, IMO, it doesn't matter much to me what those 5% think is right/wrong, on top of that those 5% don't care if they are closign areas down, they'll use them anyway.

In general, 95% of us understand what is right/wrong, and thats where the guidlines/rules kinda come from.

I didn't make that statement on what "I" consider right/wrong... I made it based on what the wheeling community considers.

[Travis]

Some examples of wrong:

Tight A$$ - not that the trail existed, but these following thigns that happened:
Cutting trees down to fit
creating bypasses because people couldn't hack it

Other ORV areas -
driving off in some direction, because they are bored, or want to go mudding in swamp.

cutting in NEW trails in an ORV area, just because they got bored.

In general -
going around gates
cutting gates open

These are just a few examples of BAD wheeling etiquette I have SEEN in the last 18 months.

[Diesel LWB Samy]

I know that there is a real problem with people going out onto virgin grassland in the Nachese area too. They take off of the main road and burn up the medows.

Those forest service guys HATE that crap. It wouldnt surpries me if some of those areas closed one day.



TB

[xBabyJesus]

Shit, by the time I get my jeep going, all the good trails are gonna be closed :mad: :sad: :sad:

THANKS A LOT YOU ASSHATS!!! :banghead: :lame: :barf: :finger: :finger:

[Comet]

Originally posted by Diesel LWB Samy
I know that there is a real problem with people going out onto virgin grassland in the Nachese area too. They take off of the main road and burn up the medows.

Those forest service guys HATE that crap. It wouldnt surpries me if some of those areas closed one day.

TB
Boy, that's the truth. I know they are looking at measures to eliminate this, or at least minimize the impact to that area of Naches. A lot of the damage is done during snow season when people aren't sure where the trail is and people blaze a new path and it gets messy in a hurry. I have the same fears that they close that part of the area down too. Hopefully they come up with a fair solution, but education is critical in this area.

[Nobody]

I agree with Mark about perceived bad guys. There seems to be a witch hunt for people doing "something" wrong. Even making a statement like that is enough get me labeled.

I remember 10-12 years ago building bridges, and connecting logging spurs up in the hills. Now a days, a guy would get strung up for even considering such an act, even though that's how most the trails were built in the first place.

Times are changing. There are more 4wheel drives than I ever would have imagined. The days of exploring the cascades are mostly gone now. It's all about showing off your trendy bead locks at the mall now.

Snow wheelin has been my refuge, but even that is slowly getting pinched because of the sledders and "thier" groomed roads.

[Travis]

perceived is an interesting thing....

Now, would I see any problem doing what you did 10-12 years ago, today? Probably not...

My only problem is with those people screwing up existing trails, by braiding, cutting trees, etc.

[RedNeckjeepfan]

what should i do when i catch a guy cutting trees down and blazing new trails. ive seen 2 guys do that before at reiter and at the sualtin basin. should i go out of my way and beat trhe crap out of him or what.

[Crash]

Originally posted by RedNeckjeepfan
what should i do when i catch a guy cutting trees down and blazing new trails. ive seen 2 guys do that before at reiter and at the sualtin basin. should i go out of my way and beat trhe crap out of him or what.

get a picture of the rig, and even better, with the plates in the picture, then contact the dnr (you can locate the #'s by doing a search)

[Travis]

yeah, no need to be controversial about it. You never know when they are armed or hostile.

I wouldn't go beating anyone's ass over it.

If it were me, I'de do like crash says, get pics with plates AND faces if at all possible, with them in the act.

[Diesel LWB Samy]

Really good points you guys are making. Just a bummer to have to deal with it.


TB

[Crash]

Originally posted by Diesel LWB Samy
Really good points you guys are making. Just a bummer to have to deal with it.


TB

Its just part of life tom, something we have to deal with, and something I have no fear in dealing with and will do so, even if somebody wants to pop a "cap" my way..

[Jeepmauler]

Hypocrites!! If you wheel at Reiter,you wheel on bootleg trails.

[Diesel LWB Samy]

Hypocrites!! If you wheel at Reiter,you wheel on bootleg trails.

Name them. Except tight ass which is closed all the trails that I have done are/were ROADS FIRST!

Isabel, the power line, the wall, all of these were roads that degridated into fun trails.

You could have made your point without calling names.


TB

[Crash]

Originally posted by jeepmauler
Hypocrites!! If you wheel at Reiter,you wheel on bootleg trails.

how so? explain please....

[Jeepmauler]

Originally posted by Diesel LWB Samy
Name them. Except tight ass which is closed all the trails that I have done are/were ROADS FIRST!

Isabel, the power line, the wall, all of these were roads that degridated into fun trails.

You could have made your point without calling names.


TB

LOL.....so you have done T.A. Hypocrite!

The tree section of the Wall trail.....................Hypocrite!!

Upper Tight Ass,Sack up,Tree trail outa main parking lot,Weed out the shit trail,Any of the trails aproaching May Creek etc. etc. Any of the branchs off the main power line road etc. etc.

[Crash]

I think jeff is refering to everything up there being BOOTLEG and not legal, but maybe I am confused.

[Diesel LWB Samy]

Well, he's a good name caller. That much is certain.

I wouldnt say that wheeling on old roads fits the topic of our discussion anyway.




TB

[Travis]

Originally posted by crash
I think jeff is refering to everything up there being BOOTLEG and not legal, but maybe I am confused.

which is correct, they are bootleg, even Index Wall is, since the road that may have existed at one point in time is under like 5' of water. So for years people have driven around it.

but, like I said before, Reiter is a bit of a grey area. The government agencies know about those "bootleg" trails, etc. which makes them pseudo legit too.

I don't think anyone here will disagree though, that cutting down trees, going around the hard stuff for an easier route, or going around the easy stuff for a harder route is "ok".

Which is really what has caused the problems at reiter.

[Crusty Jeep]

"Resource damage" is the problem at Reiter. That land makes money for the state. If you wreck a tree, you hit the state's bottom line.

Wrecking streams is also a big no-no. Would you dump a gallon of used motor oil in a stream? It effectively happens when enough rigs play in a stream.

If you wrap your winch cable around a live tree, you're part of the problem. Don't be an ass, get a tree strap and use it.

If you make mud pits in streams, you're part of the problem (I'm as guilty as the next guy here, and sack-up has a couple great examples of a totally F***ed stream crossing). If you throw rooster tails 95 feet in the air because you feel like 'gettin' it' in said stream crossing, you're part of the problem. I believe the tight-ass trails were closed because of this stuff.

If you litter, you're part of the problem. That includes leaving pieces of your rig on the ground after a tree tears it off.

[Crash]

Originally posted by CrustyJeep
"Resource damage" is the problem at Reiter. That land makes money for the state. If you wreck a tree, you hit the state's bottom line.

Wrecking streams is also a big no-no. Would you dump a gallon of used motor oil in a stream? It effectively happens when enough rigs play in a stream.

If you wrap your winch cable around a live tree, you're part of the problem. Don't be an ass, get a tree strap and use it.

If you make mud pits in streams, you're part of the problem (I'm as guilty as the next guy here, and sack-up has a couple great examples of a totally F***ed stream crossing). If you throw rooster tails 95 feet in the air because you feel like 'gettin' it' in said stream crossing, you're part of the problem. I believe the tight-ass trails were closed because of this stuff.

If you litter, you're part of the problem. That includes leaving pieces of your rig on the ground after a tree tears it off.

I think glen pretty much said it the best...

I don't know how the whole "hypocrit" comes into play, I am still confused on that one, or jeff just went off his meds, I dunno...

[Crusty Jeep]

I have mixed feelings about Reiter becoming an offical ORV park.

On the one hand we'd get a patrol to help weed out or tame the jackasses (just a presence would go a long way without writing one ticket). There would be maintenance. It sure would be nice to have a couple bridges I can think of, fixed or improved, and maybe some added. It would be nice to have the wall-trail tank trap fixed up so it is a trail, and not a lake - a few yards of 6-12-inch rock should do nicely.

On the other hand, no more 'bootleg' trails. How boring :sad:.

It's frustrating that nothing can be done up at Reiter. If I owned a dump truck and a backhow, I can tell you I'd head up to Reiter with a couple buddies and fill the tank trap over a weekend. But I'd probly get in big trouble over it, wouldn't I? Can you just pull 40 yards of gravel out of a quarry and move it to another location? I doubt it...

[Binder]

Who owns the land at Reiter? Several different agencies from what I understand. Public and private right?
The way I understand the whole thing ( and I could be wrong) is there are no official trails at Reiter pit. And they certainly don't appear to be public roads so if your up there without the owner permission your basically trespassing on their property. Everyone seems to look the other way on the whole trespassing part if it which is good for us because it gives us a place to wheel. But still there are no mapped out trails to stay on so who is to say if your on A legit trail or a bootleg trail?
The whole thing is one giant shade of grey and I think if push came to shove we would be found to be in the wrong for even being there.
Travis is right at least to a extent that certain things are just bullshit no matter where it's at (unless it's your own property).
At the same time I have little sympathy for the greenies. We can maintain that area to the extent that nobody hurts so much as a leaf on the ground and a year from now they clear cut the whole place and build condos.:rolleyes:

[Nobody]

Originally posted by crash
I think glen pretty much said it the best...

I don't know how the whole "hypocrit" comes into play, I am still confused on that one, or jeff just went off his meds, I dunno...

C'mon crash, do we need digging into the past? Reiter is mostly "bootleg" stuff. We all know it, and we all are guilty. Question is, guilty of what? Is wheelin a crime?

Some of you guys need to take a long hard look at the big picture. Where do we draw the line?

[RedNeckjeepfan]

Ive heard that the Railroad owns that land. some time ago when they were building the cascade rail line back in the day.the pite that is being used right now, was for rock, gravel and what not when the rail line was being made. i dont know if thats true or not, but since how we have been wheelen on land that land for so long, you would kinda think the goverment would kinda do something about it, as in close it down. Its been open to the public for so long, kinda makes you wounder. Who really owns Retiers Pit.

one other thing that makes me pissed is, the F**kers that dump there garbage and shit up there. There the ones that close the fun places down. They need to get beaten by a rubber hose is what those people need.

[Diesel LWB Samy]

Well, ulimtely everything is give and take. I'd like to see as many ORV parks as possible. At least then we arent garenteed to loose our trails. Shaw lake, the Highrider, the West fork of the Miller, Tight Ass, etc etc etc. We'll loose all of them eventually unless they get protected.


TB

[Not-Jobless]

Three pages of old news, illegal trails, bypasses, garbage dumping......


big fuckin deal, this is nothing new people.......so what:confused:


Do something about it or wash the sand out of your p*%^*&s and stop your whining :rolleyes:

[GPN Family]

If anyone ever went to the county ORV comittie meetings (not talking to the regulars who I see there)you would know The process to make Reiter an ORV area is underway and at least 5-10 years out. DNR wants to get walker valley settled in and functioning more self suffecient. Before they tackle reiter due to lack of man power that they face. Right now it is getting rezoned as someone mentioned above. But that is just one small step ultimatley the DNR will have to go in and map and inspect every trail there. That will close every single trail there due to wetland encroachment. So I would not be wanting them to hurry mach If I were you guys.

[Nobody]

Yep, the first thing they are going to do is close trails. Any future trails would be unlikely, and at the very best would take forever to build because of all the political BS.

[Not-Jobless]

You all can kiss Reiter good bye when the DNR gets a hold of it......you wont be wheelin there for years.

So if ya wanna keep wheelin at Reiter you all should just keep your holes shut & participate in the annual clean up.

[mark]

Originally posted by Jobless
You all can kiss Reiter good bye when the DNR gets a hold of it......you wont be wheelin there for years.

So if ya wanna keep wheelin at Reiter you all should just keep your holes shut & participate in the annual clean up.

AMEN.

get the wording changed so its not "illeagle" to wheel there.. then shut up and take advantage of what we have.


The more people looking at it, them faster it will be closed.

[Dude]

Originally posted by mark
AMEN.

get the wording changed so its not "illeagle" to wheel there.. then shut up and take advantage of what we have.


The more people looking at it, them faster it will be closed.

Couldn't have put it better myself, but somebody from the DNR probably will or already has read all this and it won't matter. Anybody thought of that? Bet not huh. ;)

[joepickett]

I have the solution we all carry firearms someone dickin up a trail we shoot them and everyone they are with take their rigs to an undisclosed location and chop em. take the money from the chop shop and put it into fixing and or buying all of reiter as a co-op

wait that would be illegal

ok carry your cameras

take the legal route and we will just do the clean-ups like before

but education and a watchful eye would help

[nwbabybronco]

:WTF:

Reading through all these posts I get the feeling that it's mostly OK to drive all these not-really-legal trails because "they" let us, and it's even OK to build new trails (?), but it's not OK to maintain them?!?

I think the DNR and other property owners would be a lot more willing to let us keep using their property if we took care of it. Just a thought...

This whole pit mentality I think will be the eventual undoing of the place, unless the DNR really is OK with that. It's fun I guess, but the whole get-out-in-nature aspect of it has been a bit shat on. I think opponents to ORVs would be less opposed if people just drove on trails, and not on every single square foot of the place.

It would be nice if we could get some kind of DNR approval to use one of their dumpsters for dumping. I've done hiking trail cleanup projects for the Forest Service and they always gave me garbage bags and let me use their dumpster. With all the recovery gear and pickup trucks owned by people on this list it's a damn shame that nobody has cleaned up the random piles of tires, car parts, cars, etc. If they didn't have to dispose of it at home, I think members of the 4x4 community would be more inclined to clean that crap up.

Maybe I should be more clear: if the DNR tells me where I can put the garbage (not whole cars) I'll go out there and haul it in myself.

[426rider]

There has been cleanup parties at reiter area and the SNORT club is sponsoring another coming up soon.(Oct. 2 )I am not saying that this is all we can do but at least there is something going on.